The Interview - ATF
S. It's difficult to interview your old mates because they know when you are bluffing! (guffaws all round). Pete, when did you first form ATF?
P. End of '71. Having been in other bands I got together with a bassist and we advertised for a drummer. After about a year we split and I joined Narnia at John Russell's invitation until '74, then tried ATF again. By chance Andy stayed over one weekend while I was discussing the band with prospective musicians.
A. And I gave them a hard time asking what their priorities were etc., all the time thinking what they needed was a good front man. At the end Peter said 'It's a shame you think the way you do because we would have asked you to join' (Oh No!). I couldn't decide whether they said that because they did or didn't want me in the band. In the end I wrote to Banksy.
P. Ian Adamson and I discussed it and the idea of Andy's acoustic six-string replacing a bass was unusual. Having no bass guitar was adventurous to say the least.
A. Little did they know ...! Actually one of the difficulties for early ATF was the audience trying to relate to the band. No bass guitar looked strange. That's how we played the first Greenbelt, our fourth gig, I think.
S. Going back to musical roots, Peter, you played guitar. What was the motivation before your classical rock period with early ATF?
P. My family were musical. Piano mainly, with mostly classical influence. When we eventually got a record player and actually heard a Tony Crombie jazz record, 'Drums Drums Drums'; we thought it absolutely wizard - and then we got into the Shadows.
A. Not so much of the us!
P. Shadows! We were coming on to everything late. And then I suppose the Beatles - incredible they changed the way I was. I was given a guitar at thirteen and learned it by the book although with piano I never had any lessons.
S. You went to university and took a science degree. At the time did you have any serious musical ambitions?
P. Well, no. I had never passed any exams in music. You went to university to do something that you were qualified to do - it was sort of natural selection. Whatever I failed I dropped and did the things I'd passed. So physics was my best subject. That's the only reason, although at university I formed a fairly serious band
S. Andy?
A. I think music was more available, but my earliest memories were sixties pop - Dave Clark Five and the rest. I actually enjoyed soul bands as much as anything, particularly because I used to go dancing several times a week, got a scooter and became a real Mod boy! I gradually got into the real authentic blues, and my early guitar playing reflected that. At eighteen there came a big turn around in my life. I became a Christian, and I could no longer sing the very heavy, rather depressing blues. So I moved into what for me was a natural progression - into what I loosely call 'gospel music'. Then I started to write my own songs and eventually joined up with Ish, who most of you will know as Ishmael, or Rev Counta, or whatever title he goes under. We worked almost two and a half years together. Not folk so much as acoustic rock. It was like live thrashing music - happy music!
S. Quite a successful time for you?
A. Yes it was; from the Christian side of it. I suppose we were the first full time Christian act in what was the 'underground' Christian circuit.
S. After that you went to Bible college. Probably a lot of people don't realise that. While you were there did you have ambitions to become a man of the cloth, or did you intend to keep on with music?
A. Well, I was still with ATF. The point was I left school after 0 levels and became a telephone engineer, amongst other things. Having joined ATF the others still had jobs and as I had time on my hands, I managed to fit a year's study in.
S. At the time it was becoming, increasingly accepted that if Christians could enjoy good music they could play it as well, and be involved in the business. This was a shift from justifying involvement in rock or pop by piously calling it a ministry (church jargon word that can cover almost anything); to simply needing no other reason than enjoyment or entertainment. How do you see that now?
A. When I became involved with ATF we were all clear that we just wanted to be a rock band. Nothing more, nothing less. I mean I know you have all the arguments, like it's no more than being a Christian plumber, but it's not quite the same because there is more responsibility. In music, you're dealing with people's emotions. That apart, as a rock band we struggled through the usual pub scene. That's why it's taken so long. I'm amazed when people ask what it was like growing-up in the Christian music scene ...!
P. If I can butt in - ever since my college days the band I was in saw that most people wouldn't go near a Christian event whoever was playing. Even if the Christian promo was in the town hall, what I suppose used to be called a semi-Christian gig (laughs), it just didn't work. As a result of that experience ATF began with the philosophy just to be normal What we had then was an intuition we've since worked out in practice.
A. I suppose we could have been braver but there was no-one really before us we could look back to as examples, ie. Christians who had tried to get into the rock business. Apart from those who'd become Christians having already established themselves. Perhaps that's why it's taken us so long. We have been too cautious. The advice I would give other bands is to be brasher. I think there are some up and coming bands who are brash, but it's no good stopping at Greenbelt and thinking you've achieved something.
P. The very first ATF were offered a record deal and management. We were just too stupid to know what was being offered. We didn't have the back-up and knowledge. But to get back to Andy's point, it's very annoying to us that people assume we've come through the Christian scene, just because they've seen us at the very few Christian gigs we've played and at Greenbelt.
S. What about Greenbelt as a gig?
A. We've always thought of Greenbelt as a celebration - a chance to come out of the wilderness and show what you've been doing.
S. One of the things I find irksome is the current circulation which tends to suggest that it is only now that Christians have decided to get out of the musical ghetto they are in.
A. I just say that you have got to have a go and be bolder. It's either a kill or cure situation. The Christian circuit or record companies can just give a false sense of security. It's illusion really. If you are not prepared to face the harsh reality of the record biz opinion it's a waste of time. It's the same with us. Christians at Greenbelt, or at our gigs, can give us a false impression of where we are at. I just say don't take your tapes to a Christian record company, or even Ghettout, because that isn't what I call getting out! There was a band I was talking to who were actually paying Kingsway to record an album. Well, a quick calculation showed that they could have paid for more time in the same studios if they'd done it themselves.
P. I'd like to enlarge on this, I do not see a place for the Christian circuit or bands. It's so insular and separate. All these rip-off recording contracts. Well, not even contracts, more groups offering companies money to record: Just another version of bribery and corruption. Another thing:- Take YFC which still do straightforward evangelism but use groups to get people in. It just dilutes both aspects - the evangelism and the bands: Some of the bands just get up and spout and they're looked up to because of the 'spout'. They say they are called to do so, but are they? Particularly when so much of what they say is shallow. When I was younger I was taken to hear speakers who would talk for one hour and a half. I never went to these glorious circus-type do's, holy circuses with super-groups.
S. So you'd be quite happy if the Christian record labels that produced that kind of mentality were stopped?
P. Absolutely!
A. I was recently asked to talk at a seminar on encouraging Christians to improve their music. The main point of the exercise apparently was to help Christians utilise their music and be involved in changing Christians' attitudes to music. My answer was 'Why join a Christian record label to do that?' If you want to change music go and get a job in a secular record business. The other thing with a Christian label is it stops people improving. It all stems from an isolationist theory, keep it in the family. No wonder the Church is diminishing. Take Greenbelt for example. That's a dilemma we all feel.
P. Sure. Greenbelt is a chance to do an over the-top show and top the bill, but at Reading we're somewhere halfway through the afternoon - but where should we be?
A. Which is why I'm still undecided about playing there this year. We would feel happier if, as originally conceived, it was simply a celebration of those involved in the arts, but unfortunately it has become for many an end in itself and hasn't gone on from there. Greenbelt has become self sufficient because Christians have such a low level of achievement. So, wonderful! - we've got a Radio One slot - clap, clap! Now we can bring the whole church! I went to Greenbelt this year and it depressed me. As a rock band we're still about rebellion but I didn't see any there.
P. The Radio One thing this year was a very subculture type programme. It had the Christian label artists, whereas the first Radio One thing was more British, with Laser Love in the bottom of the charts, Garth was getting into EMI and then Bryn Haworth, etc.
S. Let me be contentious. Your first album. Wasn't that a Christian label?
P. (shocked surprise) Good gracious me no!
A. No. We produced our own simply because we refused the Christian labels and couldn't get a good enough deal elsewhere.
S. You're going to have to convince me as well as the readers of this one! A lot of people would say you've ridden on the back of Christian punters to get where you are
P. No. I can tell you why We have only done six dates in Germany and our record sales have nearly over taken the English sales.
A. That's concrete evidence.
P. Another reason is that Christians don't buy the records they copy theirs. If our Christian fans went out and bought them we would be in the lower regions of the charts.
A. They come and see us live.
P. And I do think they buy the albums, but there are still a lot of other people!
A. I should like to answer the implied criticism that ATF are embarrassed by their Christian fans. That's not true. Some have come on strong with weird letters to DJs to play our stuff, but we feel privileged to have our fans and have a good deal of sympathy with their frustration when we don't achieve what they expect of us.
(at this point Andy produces a letter with a load of daft questions).
A. How does he want me to respond if I say we don't talk about the death and resurrection on stage? Does he want me to get struck down or something?
P. Last time we played Greenbelt most of the letters said 'If you'd mentioned the name of Jesus I'd have enjoyed it so much more': What's that supposed to mean? What a funny statement! Do they want us to use the Lord's name as a success formula? That to me is taking His name in vain. I can't use His name as a stamp of approval. When you're on stage giving it all you've got, that can reflect your life-style and Christianity in the morals the songs contain, and in the message, if they contain a semi-political or whatever slant.
S. How well do you relate to the Christian community?
A. I feel completely detached from it.
P. From the Christian musical community.
A. Yes, that part of it.
S. Do you feel you've taken a certain amount of stick from the Christian community?
A. Not now. It's got to the point where it doesn't make any difference. We don't move in those circles any more. We record in a studio. Our friends are in the music biz and we are blissfully unaware of what's being said about us either way
P. If there are any criticisms saying we are too old or not playing the latest new wave super fashion disco I think that would hurt. But ... if it's criticism when we know we're right it just washes off our backs.
S. Let's talk about your sordid future.
P. Yes please!
A. You need John Russell for that!
S. I'll talk to him later! To be blunt, you've had so many near successes which haven't made it. Are you depressed now and what's been your reaction?
A. Earlier this year we went through huge doldrums - really in the pit. Because 'almost success' has large repercussions. It's difficult to meet people and explain what's gone wrong, what's happening, so you tend to avoid people. That also happened over Jonathan when we split with his management. I wanted to see him again and his wife and spend time with them like before. But I found it hard, unless we'd had the success to justify the split. Get the ol' violins out - we've been treated very cruelly.
S. By whom?
A. Well we have taken people who weren't dynamically good, to be honest, and spent a lot of time cultivating their talent. And twice, just when we've started to break into something big they've left us to do their own thing. I mean, the point is they are part of the band. Pete and I write all the material and we could have got away with session men, but whoever came into the band shared whatever we had. Ivor wanted to leave because he didn't want to be involved in the music biz any more. The next thing is he's got his own album and a Christian tour lined up.
P. By these and other events we lost a year's momentum. Just before Ivor left everything was cooking. Tickets were booked for an American tour. It all had to be cancelled.
A. We are still recovering from those disappointments. If all we had to go on was this country we'd probably die, but with the interest in Germany and people like our management and record company pouring money in, we are moving up again. Because they believe we are a group with potential. Mind you, we have learned a lot. To be positive about it we are aware of greater powers in control of our lives.
S. What about musical trends? Do you Feel you have lost out because of the time lapse?
A. To a degree. If we had had that success we could have gone our own way, written what we liked. But we know we are under pressure to write in a certain way to be successful.
S. But you feel creative enough to compete?
P. It's not a question of competing with anyone, it's getting people to turn on to ATF. Both our management and record company have said we have a unique style and there is no-one like ATF. That's enormously encouraging.
A. After Laser Love the next album was something like our wilderness period. But with our next album we feel we have got the right unit. Pete King is definitely the right drummer for the band and technically he is extremely good. The new album is definitely what we are going to hold on to. We're not going to say 'Right, New Romanticism is working. Let's have a go at that.'
P. We'll stand by this one and say it's a great album and we are proud of it. On this album we have got the production that we needed
S. What single prospects are there?
A. A single out in the New Year called Rich Boys.
S. Can I harp back to the statement you made that all you wanted to be was a rock band? But your lyrics were Christian, ie. they were parables or something. How subtle have your lyrics become and do people always expect you to relate to the Almighty?
A. I still stand by everything I've written. Whatever's in me has come out. I don't think they've been that obvious. Maybe some of them were. I feel now I am being more direct. Obviously my Christian faith is the principal factor in my life so it affects me. What I write and what I say. I just don't think we should be afraid of asking questions.
S. How political and social do you think your songs should be?
A. I feel a lot more strongly about such issues. I wrote before without trying to understand the situations people found themselves in. Now I try to think more of how Jesus would get alongside people. I'm also learning to be honest, to say we don't know all the answers. Bruce Springsteen is a marvelous example. He writes better Christian lyrics than I do. He seems to have a knack of putting his finger on someone's soul and you feel the agony of that person's predicament. His writing is a challenge to me. Without making statements of personal faith he seems to have a greater understanding of Man's spiritual being than I do.
S. Let's talk about what you regard as the 'normal' music biz.
A. I'd like to give you a quote which may indicate the difference between the Christian and normal music biz. In '77 after we'd had an ecstatic response at Greenbelt we asked George Duffin, who we'd asked to get some work for the band up North, what he'd thought. He said it didn't mean a thing. At the time we were offended but he was quite right. Playing Reading the next year way down the bill meant much more.
P. One thing is you can't go to CBS and say we feel it's the Lord's will to do a song this way, that doesn't hold. Excuses like that are ruled out in the real world If things aren't going too well in the studio you don't get down and have a little prayer meeting. They're just glib little excuses. There is in existence a Christian album cover which actually states that all songs were written and performed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That's awful.
S. What kind of excuses do you make then?
A. You can't make any.
P. You have to have logical and musical reasons for why a song has to have a particular form.
S. Let me say, as a member of the record buying public, what appears to be the case. In its own way, the record and music biz is trivial and trite, and it's luck rather than talent or hard work for the people who make it big. It's just a few clever people pulling strings along with hyperbole. Have the people at the top really earned their passage?
A. It's a bit of both, I think
P. I think everybody who gets to the top has to have a modicum of talent. You can't have someone who is utterly useless making it by whatever method. Hype only works to a certain extent. You can't hype a record right up to the top.
A. And also for every success story you have fifty failures. The same methods are used.
P. A lot of it is down to good management
S. How do you react to the business itself? Obviously you enjoy gigging and a product at the end of it. If you could have those things without the tie-up in the rock biz would you avoid it?
P Some areas you love, some you hate. The whole book-keeping thing is a pain. Other aspects are good fun, meeting people, radio etc.
A. And of course, the crookedness of the business you hate. On the other hand there are people who become your real friends. I enjoy the excitement and the challenge. It's been very eye-opening.
P. The crookedness is no more than in any other business. It's probably just more public.
S. Can you tell us a bit about the pressure of producing a hit album?
P We finished an album and it was cut, and then the company said they weren't going to release it. We had to cancel a tour because of it and had all the legal hassle as a result. I've had to go away and come up with new songs and re-do the album.
A. That's standard. It happens all the time, even to the mega-stars. Christians on their own circuit don't come up against that kind of severity.
P. So they don't improve. They are not being disciplined. Andy and I have really high personal standards, then the band is another standard. Then there is the meticulous standard of the company. Each individual is being stretched all the time.
S. How much has the signing with Harvey Goldsmith meant to the band?
A. A terrific amount, both financially and encouragement-wise. He's put his money where his mouth is. We couldn't exist without what he is doing for us. He believes in the band and thinks what we say and the way we say it gets to him, so he keeps pushing us.
S: What most people strive for in their work is a degree of financial stability and security. How are you and your families coping?
A. We survive because we are still on retainers.
P: A modest retainer! Half the country's average.
A. I've lived on the poverty line for so long I've become a bit blase about it.
P. The band owes Harvey a fortune. We haven't earned him any money yet!
A. So we must sell records.
S. Briefly, what of the future?
A. The albums out in March and hopefully a hit single soon.
P. We have a few gigs lined up in England and then a fairly significant tour of West Germany.
